User talk:Toughpigs
Sincere Apologies I'm very sorry that I did the wrong things for you to block me. - Ianmhaiki Yikes! Have you heard about this yet? It looks like Lionsgate is trying to release more Jim Henson Hour stuff that's not actually owned by Disney or the Workshop, but they would have had to work with both of them to put this out, right? I hope it's uncut, and I hope it's a sign of more cross-licensed shows to come (like maybe The Jim Henson Hour: The Complete Series)! -- Ken (talk) 03:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC) :Yay, that looks awesome! I don't think that this necessarily counted as an official Jim Henson Hour show... It aired the week before JHH started in the same time slot, and it didn't have the JHH theme song or closing. So it's sort of "spiritually" part of Henson Hour, but it's probably owned by Sesame Workshop. Crazy that they're putting Kermit on the cover, though! I do hope that this means that some crossover releases are possible... -- Danny (talk) 17:40, April 13, 2010 (UTC) ::Sorry for butting in on the conversation, but the side of the box looks like it says it's from the Jim Henson Company. And it's a Lions Gate release, and they don't have the rights to distribute Sesame Workshop stuff. So, this is pretty exciting. It looks like they're finally doing some cross-liscensing. To echo Ken's sentiment, Yikes! --Justin 17:48, April 13, 2010 (UTC) :::Oh, really? Then, yeah -- that is super exciting! Yay! -- Danny (talk) 19:57, April 13, 2010 (UTC) Gigantic Rubber Duckie Hey, Danny. I've been going through the wiki looking for an episode of Sesame Street I vaguely remember seeing around 10 years ago. Although the details are small, I think it had Mumford making Ernie's rubber duckie bigger. Do you remember any episode like that? I asked Scott, but he's not familiar with it. --Rankin (talk) 20:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC) :Gosh, that does sound familiar, but I don't know where it would be from. If you can't find it in our search, then maybe we don't have it yet... -- Danny (talk) 20:58, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Muppets Eating Other Muppets Bloggers are posting interesting responses to the new virmup today. Thought this would be an interesting article to Tweet. —Scott (talk) 19:48, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Great Moments with Jim Henson Hey, I just thought you'd like to know that I finally got to go see the new version of Mr. Lincoln, which wasn't open yet when you were down here. The cool part is that they have a picture of Jim and some Muppets (I think it was this one, but it was cropped) hanging in the exit hallway as part of a new exhibit about famous Americans. I wasn't sure where to put it, so I mentioned it on the Disneyland page. Next time I go back there, I'll try to see where they cropped it. -- Ken (talk) 06:21, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Post-2004 cleanup Has all of the Henson stuff been reorganized how you wanted it? I was just wondering if we could announce 21,000 pages yet. -- Ken (talk) 01:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, yeah! We're way past 21,000 now. We can declare victory on that. I'm already getting psyched up for 22,000. -- Danny (talk) 03:27, March 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Okay, thanks! On something totally different, I know you mentioned the galleries have been updated. I noticed that some still have the grid lines, but some don't. Which way do you want them to look? -- Ken (talk) 05:20, March 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Never mind, I think that's a browser thing, since it looks fine on other computers. -- Ken (talk) 06:21, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Hippie Hey Danny: I noticed you placed the table guide for "Hippie sketches" over to the character's own page. Only problem is, however, is that none of the sketches are really about the character, as mentioned here, and because of that, we can't include that on his own article (I'm posotive that character pages with sketches they appeared in are specifically ones that are about them, though I'm not 100% sure). That's why I made the article, since he appeared in them but aren't actually about him, sort of like Beautiful Day Monster Sketches, like I mentioned in my summary. Wattamack4 23:55, March 25, 2010 (UTC)Alex :I didn't know you'd created a separate sketches page, which seems kind of pointless to me, but if you're dead set on it, Danny's right to merge. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:00, March 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, I saw that and realized that we shouldn't have had Beautiful Day Monster sketches either. :) In general, we try to keep things on one page where we can, because one detailed page is better than two short pages. We couldn't include all of the Ernie and Bert sketches on Ernie's page, because it's too much -- there's lots to say about Ernie and that page would be crazy long. But for minor characters like Hippie and Beautiful Day Monster, it fits just fine on one page. ::It's the same kind of logic that puts a list of book appearances on Grover's Mom, but not on Grover. Grover appears in so many books that listing every single one would be boring, so instead we put just his starring roles in Category:Grover Books. We do things differently for major characters and minor characters, and Hippie is a very minor character. -- Danny (talk) 00:00, March 26, 2010 (UTC) :::I'd just removed it originally because I really didn't think we needed a sketch listing at all (on that page or solo). It felt a little overdone for a nameless character with no consistent performer, and not in a good way. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:03, March 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh. Well, now that everything is settled, is it alright to add sketches to a character's page whether or not they're about the character or not? Wattamack4 00:07, March 26, 2010 (UTC)Alex :::::It really depends on the character. I'm hesitant to give you a general rule. It seems like you're really interested in some very minor figures in the Sesame world -- How Now Brown Cow, Rockin' Richard, the Hippie -- and you'd like to treat them the way that we treat more major characters. That's not going to work. :::::There are different tiers for how much coverage a particular character gets. Elmo, Grover, Big Bird and Cookie Monster are at the top -- then there's secondary characters like The Amazing Mumford, Natasha and Roosevelt Franklin -- third-tier characters like Wanda Cousteau and Deena. Some of the folks you're interested in are fourth-tier at best. So there's different rules depending on how important the character is. -- Danny (talk) 00:55, March 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Well, I don't try and get every single character (minor or not) a guide page, especially if they're not even characters that often appear solo, but I do see your point. I admit, sometimes it can be hard to tell which characters could have a page or not. Someitmes, like I said before, I might just get these kind of ideas from other pages. Wattamack4 01:18, March 26, 2010 (UTC)Alex Yeah, for sure! Plus, the wiki's constantly changing and growing, so sometimes you'll see a page like Beautiful Day Monster Sketches that someone created a long time ago and we just forgot about. We wouldn't create that page now -- and when you pointed it out, I went and merged it. So I understand that it's hard to get a grasp on the "guidelines" when they're kind of slippery and have changed over time. Luckily -- it's really easy to change things and move stuff around. -- Danny (talk) 01:27, March 26, 2010 (UTC) Blah? What is this page for? Did I miss something? ---- Jesse (talk) 21:11, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :Ack! I'm so sorry. I was showing somebody something for a test -- then I should have deleted it right away. And I forgot! Thank you for pointing it out; that was stupid of me. -- Danny (talk) 22:46, March 25, 2010 (UTC) ::You're welcome! Just wondering whether or not is was a general conversation page. (I was a bit baffled when a saw a picture of Fozzie followed by the term "This shit floats." - Pardon my French!) ---- Jesse (talk) 23:07, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, sorry for the profanity. I was showing how the pictures float to the side... Stupid of me to use that language on the site. -- Danny (talk) 23:22, March 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::It's okay, though it wasn't the language I minded. I mean, I've read you cursing on some other pages, such as Muppet Wiki:Current events, so nothing new. ---- Jesse (talk) 23:32, March 25, 2010 (UTC) working on the wiki? Hey Kid. I am guessing they are trying out some stuff on us today, because I saw this on the Jack page. Everything was running together in a weird way. Figured I'd point it out quick while it was fresh in my head. -- Nate (talk) 16:44, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, blah. The good news is: There's a new photo gallery update that launched today, which gives us lots of cool things that we wanted! But there's a bug in it, which you're the first person to notice. The new feature doesn't use perrow anymore because the galleries automatically wrap to fit the screen. (Hooray!) But when we do have perrow, there's a bug that messes up the line wrapping. :I reported it to the product manager working on this feature, and he's working on getting it fixed... Thank you for telling me about it!! -- Danny (talk) 17:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Oh, I'd been wondering about what happened here today. Plus, another issue might be with galleries overlapping the main image on a page when there's not enough text pushing the gallery down farther, as happened here. — Julian (talk) 20:03, March 25, 2010 (UTC) Somebody give me a towel! Thanks for tweeting about the CD set! B&N didn't get theirs yet (even though I pre-ordered it a month ago), but I mean, it's not like I don't have them already! And I noticed that they used the 2nd edition of BB Sings, which I guess is okay, otherwise they would have repeated the J poem, but now they're repeating A Really Good Feeling. Also, did you notice they spelled Carroll's Caroll's name wrong on the back cover again? I guess it's a tradition by now! Anyway, I don't know if you had heard these in their entirety before, but I hope you enjoy the songs you've never heard before. As for me, this stuff's in my DNA, but hearing them in crystal clarity is going to be like watching Star Wars in a digital theater when you've only seen it on TV! -- Ken (talk) 01:56, March 24, 2010 (UTC) :I haven't bought mine yet, but I'm looking forward to it! I have heard these, naturally, back when I was a young tyke, but I haven't heard the Sing-Along one for years and years -- that's the one I'm really looking forward to. -- Danny (talk) 17:09, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Psst... might wanna look out for this user Although registered in 2007, it looks as though User:Cheril59 might have been a hidden sock puppet from User:Ianmhaiki. I'm not that great with some ceatain accounts, but what do you think? Wattamack4 22:46, March 23, 2010 (UTC)Alex :Nope, they look clean to me. I checked the IP address, and it's not Ian's. I know what you mean -- I also get a little suspicious when I see people editing Sesame Street closing signs, which is one of Ian's favorite pages. But Cheril59 seems okay to me. Thanks for watching out, though! I appreciate the note. -- Danny (talk) 23:09, March 23, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, I did kinda re-consider my thoughts after I left this message when I noticed that user uploaded some JPG files, while Ian often uploads PNG files. I guess what mostly got me suspicious is petty much the same deal with the pages that Ian often edits with the same type of edits that (usually) always wind up getting reverted (such as the closing signs page with two signs from Season 1 being listed as "Episode 0005", with no source). And no prob, glad I could help. ;) Wattamack4 23:59, March 23, 2010 (UTC)Alex NHK alternate version citations? Hi Danny--while I was plugging in missing inserts from Episode 2574, I noticed that the nhk episode guide does not list the part of the street scene in which Maria's mother sings Duérmete Niño. In its place are two cartoons and Swamp Mushy Muddy. I checked another episode and in the nhk guide for Episode 2291 the Pájaro cartoon is replaced with a cartoon about the letter I. So it appears that in the 80s episodes, some Spanish content was replaced with English for broadcast in Japan, but there's no way to tell which inserts those are. (This is not the case with the 70s guides, as they explicitly list numerous segments that teach Spanish vocabulary and segments entirely in Spanish, and I haven't found any discrepancies there.) Ken suggested I ask you about the possibility of citing the episodes as alternate versions? - Kate 01:34, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, that's interesting! I think those could be noted at the bottom of the page in a "Notes" section, saying which scenes were replaced with which cartoons. -- Danny (talk) 18:20, March 22, 2010 (UTC) ::Ken also suggested making them as "Aleterations", like some of the episodes released on the Old School dvds. How's that sound? Wattamack4 22:13, March 22, 2010 (UTC)Alex :::Since this is an international thing, I'd prefer Notes -- We try to keep international stuff separate from the way we treat American releases. -- Danny (talk) 23:00, March 22, 2010 (UTC) Deletions Can I get some clarifications? I know Scott's deleting stuff in the sandbox, and some things are now under user pages, so are we not using "Sandbox" anymore? He also deleted Sesame Street Animated Openings, and I'd like to get that back if I could, please. -- Ken (talk) 04:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Never mind on the second thing; I see that he worked it into the Sesame Street Theme page. -- Ken (talk) 05:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah -- pages with the Sandbox: prefix don't show up in My Home, so we're switching to using user subpages instead. That way, everybody can see what people are working on. He's been deleting old stuff that we don't use, and putting the good stuff into user pages -- let him know if he's deleted anything that you think is still useful. -- Danny (talk) 05:20, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Wayland Flowers Is this picture Wayland Flowers with Bernie Brillstein? Warrick just uploaded and I asked him on his page, but it looks an awful lot like Wayland to me. If only he had Madame with him. -- ''Nate (talk) 20:00, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :No idea... He's holding Piggy as if he's performing her, but I think he's probably just holding the puppet. So: not a puppeteer, he's another person who was at whatever event that was, and who's holding the puppet to pose with her. -- Danny (talk) 20:06, March 19, 2010 (UTC) ::Warrick knows nothing of the picture. I'll ask Andrew. I looked at pictures of Wayland from that time, and it sure looks like him. Would be super fun if we could have him on the wiki. -- ''Nate (talk) 20:16, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Even if it is, I don't think it justifies a page... "Wayland Flowers once held the Miss Piggy puppet in a parking lot" isn't really a page. -- Danny (talk) 20:23, March 19, 2010 (UTC) But it's one step closer to having him here. lol. -- ''Nate (talk) 21:32, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :Ha, true. -- Danny (talk) 21:37, March 19, 2010 (UTC) Andy Warhol I don't know if you are into Andy Warhol or not, but I just found out something that fascinated me with one of his time capsules they opened in 2004, and I added it to his page. It's also led to a great mystery about the designer Halston, and a sketch I found on here he did of Miss Piggy in ''Jim Henson: The Works. I started a talk page at Talk:Halston if you might perchance know anything. -- Nate (talk) 18:07, March 18, 2010 (UTC) :That's fantastic! I love it. I just edited to expand that section a bit, and include the picture from the Carnegie site. What a neat find! :I don't know anything about that Halston drawing -- I'm not home right now to check my copy of ''The Works, so you know more than I do. :) -- Danny (talk) 18:38, March 18, 2010 (UTC) The Sesame Street Mix or Match Storybook I forget if you had this, or had seen it. —Scott (talk) 04:30, March 18, 2010 (UTC) :I don't have it, and that is unbelievable! I love the scans; that's so much fun. -- Danny (talk) 18:39, March 18, 2010 (UTC) A couple of balls of clay Thanks for Bert and Ernie's Great Adventures (video)! I can't believe they're finally putting it out in the US! And you heard that Dog City is coming out right after Song of the Cloud Forest, right? Boy, and here I thought all we were going to have was Season 4 and the SS CD set to look forward to this year! -- Ken (talk) 02:20, March 16, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, I'm psyched for the Great Adventures video too -- all three of those, actually. And the CD set comes out pretty soon, yay! -- Danny (talk) 05:22, March 16, 2010 (UTC) Elmo's Rainbow and Bert and Ernie's Great Adventures I saw that you made an edit to Bert and Ernie's Great Adventures, stating that the "Farmers" segment appears in Elmo's Rainbow and Other Springtime Stories. I have the DVD and it doens't contain any Bert and Ernie's Great Adventures sketches, unless it's an easter egg or something. It does have a stop motion segment featuring a farmer, but it's not from the Bert and Ernie's Great Adventures series. Is this indeed an easter egg or did you make a mistake? --Minor muppetz 23:08, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :Ack, I'm sorry -- I misread the Elmo's Rainbow page. I thought that it contained the entire episode for 4200, but now that I look at it again, it says it's just the street scenes. Sorry! What a stupid mistake. I'll take it off the page. -- Danny (talk) 23:11, March 14, 2010 (UTC) Name That Voice What ho! We've been doing a lot of reverts or explanation to different users lately about how we source character voices (and it's been an issue before). Often it's patently obvious when it's Jim Henson or Frank Oz, and folks like Guillermo and Tony have good ears and judgement (and even then we usually ask them on talk pages). But it's a problem with both newer users or just folks who really want to be able to say "So and so played Anything Muppet #6," but are literally naming everyone from Jon Stone to Joey Mazzarino. So, and I've actually had this in mind for a few years, I've finally started a policy page of sorts. I wasn't sure whether to also use it as a page ala Name That Puppet to just post guesses and theories, which clutter a lot of talk pages, but that could be problematic. I'm hoping both firm but clear explanation of what's acceptable *and* links to sources they can use will help. I'm still working on adding big resource (and a lot of fun just to listen to): links to actual voice demos for several Sesame or other puppeteers who also do character or commercial voices (and some for human cast even). Either identifying a character in that demo or using a sample voice as a point of comparison sure beats "I'll bet that's David Rudman" or "I know it's Steve Whitmire because his sneezing sounds like Wembley." Anyway, though it's very much a work in progress, take a look when you get a chance, and if something sounds too obtuse or harsh for our users, feel free to spruce it up! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:00, March 13, 2010 (UTC) :It's a good idea to talk about this stuff; I'm not sure exactly what the answer is. In many cases, we actually can tell who's who based on the voice -- especially on The Muppet Show and early Sesame Street, where there's a limited set of choices. Henson, Oz, Goelz, Nelson, Hunt and Whitmire each have a stock set of voices that are easily distinguishable from each other's. We spent five years listening to them doing characters every episode, so we know those voices very well. On Sesame, there are some other performers like Kevin Clash and Joey Mazzarino who are really easy to spot, because their voices are very distinctive (and they only do three voices each). :But after a while, especially on Sesame Street, there were other performers whose voices aren't so easy to identify, like David Rudman, Marty Robinson, Jim Martin and Michael Earl. For any given Sesame voice from the mid-80s on, there are a lot more possibilities. :So we don't need a presskit to tell us that Jerry Nelson played Zuzu Fitzwaller, because it's The Muppet Show and he sounds like a hundred other Jerry Nelson characters. But we do need something extra when the voice is more slippery, and there are several possibilities. :The same is true for a lot of our sources -- we demand sources for some things and not others, and it's always obvious to us what needs a source and what we consider to be "common knowledge". For the most part, I think that the contributors here get that. Herman (1RichardHunt) seems to be having a particularly hard time with it. Alex also has some trouble with it sometimes, but he's learning what needs a source and what doesn't. :In general, for the folks that don't get it -- I'm not sure a long essay on it will help. It feels like you either have common sense or you don't. -- Danny (talk) 23:57, March 13, 2010 (UTC) ::Actually, another way of putting it is: We trust you or we don't. Just as I was writing that response, Enrique added voice cast info to "Daddy Helps with the Dishes", identifying Kevin Clash, Ivy Austin and Marty Robinson. I don't feel any need to check on that or bug him for sources, because it's Enrique and he's done almost 14,000 edits, and his track record here is impeccable. Herman is fairly new, and he comes across as moody and untrustworthy. -- Danny (talk) 00:02, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :::You're right, but trimmed of some of the essay stuff, and with demo links, I still think it could be useful (and if only, like our other policies, to be able to save breath and just link to and say "Don't do this.") And I think the biggest thing is just the "Every one-line character needs a performer" and especially "Guessing a voice by one word or sound" stuff, but that is really common sense as you say (but a lot of folks still aren't getting it, and it seems they need to be told outright that it's not productive). But yeah, a lot of it is trust (we have the same thing when it comes to other stuff; we trust each other and Guillermo and Tony and so on when they add something from a personal video even if we don't have access to it or a specific eka, but some newcomer with erratic edits, we ask first). It just crops up most often, and with quite a few users (Garrett still has issues with it), with voices, and mainly those one-shot Sesame obscurities. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:10, March 14, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yeah, that makes sense. I made some edits to the policy page, just to trim and clarify. (The people who we direct to that page probably have a lower tolerance for complicated verbiage, if you know what I mean.) So I trimmed some sentences and also made it clear what the good sources and bad sources are. -- Danny (talk) 02:00, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :::::Heh, I like the directness ("If you're guessing, then you're wrong") which, for the kind of issues and users we're discussing, works best. -- 04:14, March 14, 2010 (UTC) Oh, here's that demos section I was telling you about. There's a few more (mostly folks like Drew Massey and Victor Yerrid that I didn't feel like listening to tonight), and the formatting is kind of messy (I wanted to note specific relevant Muppet or related voices as kind of a guide). One of the areas of dispute which at least half a dozen users of varying history have been involved in is female voices (including Fran Brill), so I included all of those I could find (not all the demos are very Muppety, but it still helps). Feel free to pretty it up if you can. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:06, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, that's fun! Although it does help to highlight that some of these performers have a much wider range of voices than the TMS guys... So it's harder to spot them. -- Danny (talk) 07:15, March 14, 2010 (UTC) ::What a great page! I love that the first thing that jumps off the page is If you're guessing, then you're wrong. —Scott (talk) 16:10, March 14, 2010 (UTC) :::That should be the slogan for the whole wiki! -- Ken (talk) 04:23, March 15, 2010 (UTC) Disney Merchandise Hey Kid, I'm going to create the Disney Store Merchandise category, and start moving stuff. As for changing article titles from Muppet towels (Disney Store) to Muppet towels (Disney), I'll leave that up for further talk, or for you to change. I would be fine with it personally. -- Nate (talk) 16:20, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :Okay, great! I don't know about the article titles -- it feels a little weird to me to say (Disney), because it feels a bit like saying (Henson) -- everything is Disney, in a way. But Disney is the manufacturer for Disney Store stuff, so D.Store is a little redundant. I don't know; I'm conflicted. :) -- Danny (talk) 16:23, March 12, 2010 (UTC) ::I suggest this. What about just doing "muppet towels" for now, and if other towels are found from other companies, we can cross those bridges as they happen. -- ''Nate (talk) 17:53, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :::There are more Muppet towels; I've got pictures that I could add but just haven't had the inspiration to do that over anything else. So that's a temporary fix that wouldn't actually solve it... :) My feeling right now is: If the product says Disney Store on the tag, then we say (Disney Store). -- Danny (talk) 18:21, March 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, I take it back... I just looked at the Disney Store category, and there are a bunch of products (like the snowglobe) where we don't actually know what the tag said. Let's just say (Disney) and have done with it. This time for sure; no backsies. (Disney). -- Danny (talk) 18:23, March 12, 2010 (UTC) Well going through all the stuff today, I noticed that I created some articles that say ''Muppet*Vision 3D in the title when now I don't think they should. Like the Muppet*Vision 3D shot glasses. Those were just Muppet shot glasses sold in the parks, not specific to Muppet*Vision 3D. Likewise I had the Muppet snowglobes (Disney) in the category of 3D merchandise, and really it is better at home now in the Disney Store and Disney Parks merchandise category. I reserve the right to go backsies though if we think otherwise. -- ''Nate (talk) 22:36, March 12, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, I agree with everything you just said. I'm glad that we have these Parks and Store categories now; I think they'll help us to make those kinds of distinctions better. -- Danny (talk) 00:55, March 13, 2010 (UTC) Danny's talk archive *Muppet Wiki Talk Archives